Still frames import with a length in frames Posted by jwrl - 28 Aug 2013 03:59 This thread started as a hijack of another one. The relevant posts follow: to work with animation storyboards we need fast import of folders of images and to be able to import each frame with a set clip length in frames ( not just in seconds as is the case now) khaver wrote: klongman, Why do you need a set number of frames instead of seconds? You can mark and park the number of frames you want and insert that into the timeline. Actually I'm not sure what you're asking. You want to import folders of images. Are these images separate pictures or are they image sequences? If they are sequences follow the instructions I struck out in my post above. If they are all separate pictures, then I don't understand your wanting to set each "frame" to a certain clip length in frames. Can you re-phrase your sentence? RWAV wrote: I think he wants to import a folder of individual image files but at the same time to assign a specific/different duration for each of the files being batch imported and for that measure to include the ability to nominate the duration to frame accuracy, I guess to fit an existing storyboard duration. no not image sequences these work fine as they are in lightworks, I mean for an animated storyboard delivered as many individual image files (e.g bmp,png or jpg) often in folders for each shot & scene and wanting to import them all at once to make clips that are for example 6 frames long, not having this prevents me even suggesting lwks as a possible edit system at work it would take only a small change to how still images are supported, just have the length in frames not in seconds. It is possible to import them now at the shortest length possible 1 second, but manually adjusting trimming these clips for hundreds of files is too much work khaver wrote: Isn't there dedicated storyboarding software that does something like this? Seems a bit beyond what I picture Lightworks doing. 1 / 10
You can import the stills at say 60 seconds and mark-and-park or fill-to-fit the required amount for each still and insert those into the edit. (use the "+" key + the number of frames to advance the playhead frame sccurately) Okay, now I see. You just want the ability to specify the number of frames for still image duration instead of just seconds. Seems reasonable enough to me. Maybe a toogle between seconds and frames with an input box to enter a number directly. You should add this to the feature request thread. hi khaver, yes its dedicated storyboard software that is generating these files. Its quite common in animation, toggle sounds good to me RWAV wrote: Sounds to me like you are also wanting individual clip length control - unless you have a storyboard to be converted into an animatic with only 6 frame clips? khaver wrote: This is something you could probably do quite easily using Avisynth. v1 = imagesource("folderpict01.jpg" end=6) v2 = imagesource("folderpict02.jpg" end=6) v3 = imagesource("folderpict03.jpg" end=6) v4 = imagesource("folderpict04.jpg" end=6) v5 = imagesource("folderpict05.jpg" end=6) v1+v2+v3+v4+v5 assumefps(29.97) You could even create a batch file that reads the contents of a folder and writes the Avisynth script on the fly. Then just open the script in Virtualdub to encode to video. well just being able to choose the length in frames not seconds would work for me, i don't know how a 2 / 10
clip length function would work? the importing is just the start, editing the storyboard would involve changing lengths of some clips, removing some etc, so i would still want them as individual storyboard panels not a whole video clip. khaver wrote: Import the stills with a duration of say 60 seconds. Move them to a bin. Arrange the tiles in the order of your storyboard. Open the timeline of each clip one at a time and mark and park the duration you want. Place the start point several seconds into the clip so you have enough head for dissolves. Use the "+" key and enter a number to advance the playhead the required frames ahead. Once this is done for all the clips right click on the bin and select "Make edit". It will ask you if you want to use the marks on the clips. Select "Yes". You will now have an edit that you can change, add transitions, effects, etc. well i could,but not approx 2500 clips for 10 mins animation, i'll try and explain it as a feature request RWAV wrote: I don't fully understand. If you import a bunch of 6 frame clips then unless your animatic has only 6 frame clips then you still need to manually edit the length of those that are not 6 frames long? Of course that's not a huge problem, nor is shortening clips if they are all imported at one second duration - once proficient at it editing and trimming in LW is really very fast. Perhaps there are some LW specific tips we could give if you explain your workflow a little more for example are you working with any guide timing material a sound track or perhaps a rough output from some storyboard software. On the other hand - we use Toon Boom Storyboard software here because, in my view, it's far superior at storyboarding/animatic making than trying to shoehorn LW into that job. hi RWAV, i'm not suggesting using lwks as a boarding tool, but for animatic editing. we use a tool called RedBoard for generating the boards which are delivered as folders of bmp files with names that contain 3 / 10
a shot number and a sequential number to order them in the folder. RedBoard is 3d boarding tool so generates many more boards than when hand drawing them, e.g roughly 6fps. so importing a couple of thousand files in order to hand edit them is not much fun. I simple change to how the current still import function works for stills to specify the length in frames would allow for a good workflow. we use fcp at the moment which has. a global setting for the length in frames of how to import still images RWAV wrote: Thanks. So your RedBoard software creates images at about 6fps for each clip? According to their web page - "Redboard exports tweened animations with your storyboards to Autodesk Maya, 3DS Max and Softimage" LW does not do tweening - but it seems that RedBoard does - so if you were to batch export the tweened sequences from RedBoard in say a.dxf file, then batch convert that to an image file sequence' using 'Any DWG DXF Converter' or similar, into a JPEG sequence or whatever you like - then all your shots imported into LW would be the correct length and all the batch conversions can run unattended? If I'm right and RedBoard does make short image sequences - that's why there are so many files - then perhaps you need to import them into LW as an image sequence and change their running speed in your edit to suit your video frame rate? Or am I misunderstanding RedBoard? Otherwise it seems that all you can do in LW is edit your material - whether you have to trim by one frame or 1000 frames the time taken is the same - and unless you are simply duplicating your storyboard - kahver makes a very good point "Place the start point several seconds into the clip so you have enough head for dissolves". After reading your previous post again: It seem that RedBoard exports the entire board as a sequentially numbered series of images - why not simply import that full sequence as a single clip into LW. The make an edit in LW of the exact running time of your animatic - possible fill it with LW machine black. Mark and park the full correct length edit - the mark and park the imported image sequence which needs to run the length of the edit - use the LW fit-to-fill feature to make the source running time exactly fit the destination space. 4 / 10
No when you need to make changes - simply make an 'empty cut' in your master video track and add/delete as required. I hope this helps for people who want to contribute to this topic. Posted by klongman - 28 Aug 2013 09:39 you are misunderstanding redboard, its very fussy about naming convetion and file type ( you cant change these as they are used in an EDL and for export as mel scripts into maya - but dont worry about all the gory details, Also I am not asking about image sequences ( they work fine in lwks) or trynig to match the timing of something by importing at a particular fps. just simply being able to batch import many still images and automatically make clips of a predefined length in frames into a bin/project. The timing of the boards is then up to the editor, not the board artist, they can extend, shorten delete whatever they like in the animatic so this is why I need discreet clips for each panel. Yes there are a lot of them but thats what we need, just suggesting a extension to how lwks imports stills at present which hopefully will help with many different. workflows. Posted by ldtowers - 28 Aug 2013 16:36 I think frankly this is a silly request. Still frames should be referenced as still frames not imported and converted to video. You should be able to do what ever you want with them at the time you make an editorial decision. Posted by Ben Wilson - 28 Aug 2013 17:11 ldtowers wrote: I think frankly this is a silly request. Still frames should be referenced as still frames not imported and converted to video. You should be able to do what ever you want with them at the time you make an editorial decision. Not so silly. EVERY edit software package I have had any experience with imports still images as video. That is the only way the images can be edited into a timeline of video. AVID allows you to define an image duration in frames. As a matter of fact, I think it only uses frames for the duration. I think PPro 5 / 10
does the same. I think that is a very valid feature request to have Lightworks allow defining an image import length in frames instead of seconds only. Posted by ldtowers - 28 Aug 2013 17:22 You then have had no experience with Final Cut Pro, Abobe Premiere, Smoke, After effects, etc. a well as many others which do the superior thing of keeping stills as stills in their original resolution. Even Avid does the same when using the pan and zoom effect. Maintaining the original image as a still let's you do frame moves, pan's zoom etc without being limited to video res. This would be ESPECIALLY important if you are doing animatics and want to simulate different shots. (Wide to close up from same image) Posted by Ben Wilson - 28 Aug 2013 19:30 deleted by poster Posted by ldtowers - 28 Aug 2013 20:16 Furthermore the new version of FCP does away with the convention of importing still frames as video. It just IS NOT professional to convert still images to video unless they are tagged image sequences meant to convert to video. You want an image to last 6 seconds? stretch to 6 seconds, or do a fit to fill. Should you be able to specify a default duration for images when cut into the timeline? Sure, THAT might be useful. Importing stills AS video is not. Posted by klongman - 28 Aug 2013 21:13 now you're being just silly. 6 / 10
My request was not for a feature to turn still images into video?? just to be able to specify a default length in frames for stills and batch import them. You must agree a still has to have a duration of some sort, and of course the point is then to be able to lengthen and shorten the clips of the individual image files anyway the editor chooses, fine with me if you want to zoom in etc. I think there have been questions about how lwks handles high res images for rostrum type moves. but again I never mentioned this in my original post. khaver has a very good point about edls not referencing the file names as the source this would be a problem for me. I ' lll have to do some more tests. the simple request for importing stills with frames is useful and as professional as you would need, it seems to be getting a bit lost? Posted by ldtowers - 28 Aug 2013 21:50 A still frame is a still frame of one frame duration! Having overseen literally THOUSANDS of productions, creating media that bears no real relation to original acquisition media is a recipe for disaster. Importing media should always take it in it's original form and original duration. You don't make editorial decisions upon importing of media. A picture is just a picture. It isn't 6 seconds of video. And if you have to conform a project with lots of 6 seconds of video shots that are actually still images you are in a world of hurt. The only feature you SHOULD ask for is having a default duration assigned to stills cut into a timeline. Then your sequence will properly reference a still image held for a duration of 6 seconds or whatever duration you feel is appropriate. That is the way ALL professional editing products are moving. Posted by klongman - 28 Aug 2013 22:15 please dont tell me what I should do in CAPS, its rude and moreover i have the freedom to say what I want how would you specify a default duration for cutting in stills, would it be a a gobal setting? why would that be any more useful than a default import setting, I have said there are hundreds of individual storyboard panels, do you want me to post a picture of one of our timelines? 7 / 10
Posted by ldtowers - 28 Aug 2013 23:19 How they would implement the feature is up to them. But defining the default for cutting stills into a sequence would accomplish exactly what you want, a set duration for clips in the sequence, where it counts without changing the relationship between original and imported media. A still has a duration of exactly 1 frame. Your desire to want it to last 6 seconds in the sequence is an editorial decision and that is where any default settings should apply. Again, this is the way all pro products work going forward. They don't pretend that stills are video and assign arbitrary lengths to them as sources. That is 1990's thinking. Posted by Ben Wilson - 28 Aug 2013 23:34 ldtowers wrote: How they would implement the feature is up to them. But defining the default for cutting stills into a sequence would accomplish exactly what you want, a set duration for clips in the sequence, where it counts without changing the relationship between original and imported media. A still has a duration of exactly 1 frame. Your desire to want it to last 6 seconds in the sequence is an editorial decision and that is where any default settings should apply. Again, this is the way all pro products work going forward. They don't pretend that stills are video and assign arbitrary lengths to them as sources. That is 1990's thinking. Any Edit software worth anything will work as the user needs it to work. Not pigeonhole the user into working a certain way, as it seem you are proposing it should in this instance. Posted by RWAV - 29 Aug 2013 00:14 In LW it is possible to reference the original still file or import it as video the choice depends on the users specific needs There is nothing intrinsically wrong with the suggestion that a less than 1 second option is made available for importing stills as video - it would be a global per import setting and would still require 8 / 10
editing/extending and whether each import is 6 frames or 25/30 frames long is possibly of little consequence - so I really don t see how it would greatly benefit the current proponent of the idea. but then that is for the user to decide. I can imagine an interface a little like the dissolve duration drop down with commonly used presets but also with the ability to manually enter any number you prefer. However, the proponent of the idea is straying beyond his/her comfort zone in asserting that it would not be difficult to implement in a software package as complex as LW that assessment and prioritising work are clearly in the sole provenance of the LW developers. Having watched the RedBoard tutorial on editing via FCP it seems that NLE has a couple of advantages over LW for the specific task of editing RedBoard output I m not a FCP user but in the tutorial it seems the user is selecting several clips and reducing their length proportionally to bring the outpoint of the group into sync LW does not do that and FCP makes an EDL that RedBoard can read I m not sure if that is in a standard EDL format which depends on reel name and timecode as references. Not sure if it s this thread or another but @khaver has pointed out that LW assigns reel names based on internal LW shot cookies but that it is possible to print file names as comments in an EDL generated by LW. Since each single frame has the same timcode beginning each single frame needs a unique reel number to change the reel number to the shot name display each bin of shots a list Ctrl-C on the shot name and Ctrl-V on the reel name. Depending on the length of the shot names there may still be problems with reel name/number truncating in a standard EDL you d have to test for that. Posted by ldtowers - 29 Aug 2013 00:52 LW may import the stills as video but that is most likely for newbies or legacy support. Professionals always link to original media or if they create proxies they create proxies that are completely analogous to the originals. Lower res video for higher res video, smaller still images for larger images. This way there are NO surprises when conforming! Posted by khaver - 29 Aug 2013 01:22 When Lightworks imports a still it simply gives it a default duration so when you add it to the timeline it's not just 1 frame long. It does not convert it to video. The down side of the way Lightworks imports these 9 / 10
is the still is displayed scaled down to the project resolution. If you zoom in using the DVE effect you're zooming in on the scaled down image instead of the full res picture. 10 / 10