ISO/TC145-IEC/SC3C JWG 11 N 119

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1 ISO/TC145-IEC/SC3C JWG 11 N 119 ISO ORGANISATION INTERNATIONALE DE NORMALISATION INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATION FOR STANDARDIZATION IEC COMMISSION ÉLECTROTECHNIQUE INTERNATIONALE INTERNATIONAL ELECTROTECHNICAL COMMISSION Title: Combined s received from the members of IEC/SC 3C and ISO/TC 145 on 1CD Ed.2 Source: Convener Status: To be discussed Date: This document is a combined compilation of s taken from the document 3C/1410/CC and ISO TC 145 N 500. The s are sorted in clause order. All JWG 11 members are kindly asked to review this document in advance of the forthcoming meeting in Hayama (Japan). All s received should be discussed to revise 1CD Ed.2. See Annex

2 2 Combined s received from the members of IEC/SC 3C and ISO/TC 145 Date Document C/1394/CD & ISO TC145 N484 IT /Editorial) No s on behalf of the Italian. Noted. CZ Name of standard As for the draft 3C/1394/CD IEC Ed. 2 it should be noted that according to Annex B it really is an international registration of symbols. In order that this is clear even from the name of the standard and nobody took it that they are symbols expressing by the contents a registration the name of IEC should be changed approximately in the following sense. We recommend to change the name of IEC as follows: Part 1: Creation of graphical symbols subject to registration, or Part 1: Creation of graphical symbols subject to (international) registration, or Part 1: Creation of registered graphical symbols. In this sense it will be then necessary to alter the text of the first 1 Scope, and the text of definition 3.4 (the text of definition 3.6 may be left as it is).

3 3 DE-1 /Editorial) General The German does not agree with the revision of IEC Ed. 2 as proposed. Keep previous version (Ed.1) unchanged. When the German voted positive on revising the standard, this was understood for correcting erors and filling-in details and/or missing aspects, but not for opening the design principles, making them meaningless. The proposed revision is no improvement. Looking at the current draft, she German would rather prefer to keep the previous version of the standard. See also detailed s below. DE-2 General / ISO/IEC should be the basis for achieving consistency and alignment of IEC and ISO This basis is carried away by the revision as proposed. By opening up the basic design principles the intended harmonization of the two standards will be undermined and destroyed. Instead, we fully support the proposed improvements of the ISO/IEC database presented in document 3C(Cape Town/Chairman) 02 for more consistency and alignment.

4 4 DE-3 /Editorial) General / If the design principles allow for a graphically inconsistent set of symbols in the database standard, this would mean that the average user needs extra effort to make symbols consistent first before application on a product. This is absolutely unacceptable for the average user. Alternative possibilities of handling design modifications of graphical symbols originals drawn in accordance with ISO/IEC Ed. 1 should be considered and taken into account to achieve a better and supportive handling of needed symbol modifications for the industry within the ISO/IEC database. Harmonization is needed. This is not possible if design principles are too weak. If in certain application areas there is an industry need to have standardized alternative graphics as applied on products, such symbol application graphics might be additionally put into the symbol database. The basic design principles however need not be modified for this. UK-01 Introduction First First sentence states that A graphical symbol is.... This wording implies that all, and any, graphical symbols achieve this goal but frequently they do not transmit the intended information. As there is no specified mechanism in the draft standard for testing the effectiveness of a symbol it is suggested that the wording is modified to indicate that the current wording is the definition of a graphical symbol. First line: after A graphical symbol is insert defined as. UK 02 Introduction First The current text implies that consistency is only important for symbol families or when symbols are used on similar equipment. The value of design consistency should be stated more generally. Replace third sentence with: "The understanding of such symbols can be improved by design consistency. This is particularly important where families of symbols are used in one location or on similar equipment. Good design also helps maintain the legibility of symbols when they are reduced to small dimensions for application.

5 5 UK- 03 Introduction Second /Editorial) Editorial Second, third line: the word drawing could be confusing as there are separate ISO standards dealing with symbols specifically for use in documentation and on technical drawings. Delete drawing and insert designing. US-1 Introduction 2nd E The text of the last sentence of the 2nd is misleading. The principles of ISO/IEC are not required for all graphical symbols for use on equipment, but rather for graphical symbols for registration and symbol originals. Revise last sentence: These design principles should be used for all graphical symbols for use on equipment and are required for graphical symbols for registration and for symbol originals in IEC or ISO UK-04 US-2 UK-05 Scope First The second line states that the series is concerned with the application of graphical symbols. In practice, cannot govern how symbols are used: Part 3 can only state how the registered symbol may be adapted for application purposes. 1 E The phrase "this part of IEC 80416" implies that the whole series consists of IEC standards, whereas the series is a joint development of IEC and ISO. 2 Normative references As the Scope refers to the adaptation of symbols for application purposes the relevant part of should be referenced here. After creation of graphical symbols for registration delete rest of sentence and insert and how they may be adapted for use in practice. Revise 1st sentence of 2nd : This part of ISO/IEC specifies. Revise 1st sentence of 3rd : This part of ISO/IEC applies. Revise 1st sentence of 4th : This part of ISO/IEC does not apply. Add reference to as final reference. UK Not all symbols submitted for registration will be registered. Amend definition to reflect this. After symbol original delete to be and insert submitted for.

6 6 /Editorial) JP Editorial The nominal size needs to be described about not only the definition but also the usage. In CEI IEC 416 published in 1988 that is the former standard of IEC 80416, there is the description about it as follows, Nominal dimension The nominal dimension a is the nominal dimension, equal to 50 mm for symbol originals. The real dimensions of graphical symbols often differ from the nominal dimension and are expressed as a proportional factor of a as illustrated in the following examples. - real height = 0.56a(i.e X 50mm = 28 Some users may not understand why the nominal size is needed, since nowadays most designers draw the block copy on their computer and do not need to express the size of graphical symbols numerically in some cases. However, for administrators of the graphical symbols, the concept of the nominal dimension is an indispensable factor to handle the data of the graphical symbols. Proposed description could be adopted Part-1 or Part-3. NOTE should be added as follow. NOTE 1 Nominal size can be used numerically to express the actual size for in reproducing and manufacturing process. Such as the nominal size =3mm UK Definition of symbol original This does not state where the symbol is registered. After registered insert in ISO 7000 or IEC US E Definition seems to be incomplete. Recommend adding "in IEC or ISO 7000". Also see US on phrase "this part of IEC 80416" above. Revise definition: drawing of a graphical symbol, including the corner markings, prepared in accordance with this part of ISO/IEC and registered in IEC or ISO 7000

7 7 /Editorial) UK First line The term graphical symbol should be clarified. After assigned to each add registered. UK Second sentence In practice, it may not be possible to avoid the use of technical terms. However, these should be explained where appropriate. Delete text after unambiguous and insert and clear. UK Second sentence The wording is confused and should be clarified. After Care should be taken to avoid ambiguity delete rest of sentence and insert in the case of a graphical symbol where its meaning is dependent on the orientation. US-4 5 2nd sentence E Incorrect subject verb agreement. Should be plural. Revise 2nd sentence: The meaning assigned to the new graphical symbol individual graphical symbols or graphical symbol elements. US-5 5 T Clause 5 may allow the inference that a graphical symbol element may have only one meaning. Taken at its most extreme, this would mean that a circle can be used as a symbol element only to mean "on" (IEC ). But such a restriction would be completely impractical and is contradicted by a great many symbol registered in IEC and ISO Add the following sentence to clause 5: The same graphical symbol element may be used with different meanings when the probability of confusion is minimal. UK Note 2 This Note refers to the application of symbols, whereas this part of is concerned only with the design of symbols to be submitted for consideration for registration. In addition, levels of illumination are outside the scope of any part of Delete Note 2.

8 8 UK-12 /Editorial) 6.2 Note 3 Comment similar to that above for Note 2. Note 3 should be deleted. However, if it decided to retain some of the material in Note 3 then it should be amended also to refer to symbols intended for nonprofessional users. First preference is to delete Note 3. Second preference if it is to be retained then add additional sentence: Graphical symbols for use on products intended for the general public that is, non-technical users - should be readily understood without the need for training. DE It is not acceptable to open up the standard to allow a wide range of line thicknesses for symbol originals There should only be a small set of line thicknesses, to be used for drawing symbol originals. Rules should be given when it is allowed to deviate from these. If in certain application areas there is an industry need for having other line thicknesses in actual symbol use, such symbol application graphics might be additionally put into the symbol database. The basic design principles however need not be modified for this. UK First Spurious differences in line width are confusing for users of the database and also consumers using the symbols. As most symbols are applied in practice with a line width of around 4 mm (audio, video and multimedia, household appliances, health care, vehicles etc), the recommended line width should be 4 mm not 2 mm. A 2mm line width is rarely used in practice. Also, when 2 mm symbol originals are adapted for application by increasing the line width, significant redrawing may be required to meet the minimum spacing requirement (clause 6.4). This equivalent problem does not occur when a 4 mm line width is reduced. Replace second sentence with: "In general, a line width of 4mm is recommended."

9 9 UK-14 /Editorial) 6.3 Note 1 The note contains a grammatical error and the meaning is unclear. Replace "that has already..." with "that have already..." and clarify the meaning of the note. US Note 1 E Subject-verb disagreement. Should be plural "have" rather than "has". Revise Note 1: graphical symbols that have already been standardized. UK Note 2 The meaning of "visual design criteria" is unclear. Replace "visual design criteria are maintained" with "the other design guidelines in this standard are followed". DE It is not acceptable to open up the standard to allow different ways of negating a symbol. While currently there are different ways of negating a symbol in the database, it is the clear target of this standard to overcome this difference and come up with only one way of negating a symbol. Retain the original negation cross from the 1 st edition. By way of the database, other negating methods might be accepted for a few symbols for which the cross is graphically difficult to apply. This would however only apply to symbol application graphics, not to symbol originals. UK Third The differences between the examples of negation given in this are minimal. The main categories of negation are: - to indicate the non-availability of a function due to cancellation by the user or for operational reasons. (This would also include the absence of an object or substance, eg "PVC free".) - to indicate required behaviour (eg. "do not") for either safety (i.e. safety signs) or other reasons (as in this case of ISO 7000 and IEC 60417). Replace three with: "The negation symbol elements can be used to indicate the non-availability of a function due to cancellation by the user or for operational reasons, as shown in examples a) and b). The negation symbol elements may also be used to indicate required behaviour as in example c)." Examples: a) IEC : Bell cancel b) ISO : Motion sensor off or not available c) IEC : Not to be used in residential areas

10 10 US th /Editorial) T The stated prohibition on using a circle with diagonal bar in any colour means that the circle with diagonal bar can be used only for safety applications. ISO explicitly states that the red circle with red diagonal bar has the meaning of prohibition in safety applications. ISO is silent about the use of the circle with diagonal bar in colours other than red. Therefore, the first sentence is in fact inaccurate or, at the very least, a dramatic overextension. There are applications of the circle with diagonal bar that are not safety applications. ISO (do not re-use) does not indicate the reason why the item should not be re-used. It could be safety, but it could equally be that the item will not function when re-used, but the failure to function has no safety implications at all. Likewise, ISO (do not re-use if packaging is damaged) may mean that the equipment in the package requires isolation from the normal atmosphere in order to function properly and, if the packaging is damaged, the equipment will not function, but the failure to function has no safety implications. Revise 4th : The red circle with red diagonal bar is defined in ISO for use in safety applications to denote a "prohibition". Therefore, the red circle with red diagonal bar shall not be used for negation of graphical symbols for use on equipment. A black circle with black diagonal bar of equal line thickness may be denote the meaning of "do not" when safety is not at issue. DE d The standard should not be opened up to allow symbol originals to extend the octagon, except that a 2 mm line may be centered on the octagon line. Retain the text of the 1 st edition. This should not be a practical problem, since in real application, symbols have to be matched in size and appearence anyway, and the octagon is not visible there.

11 11 US st /Editorial) E Clause 3.5 defines "nominal size" as equal to 50 mm. Therefore, it is redundant and unnecessary to repeat it here. Delete 2nd sentence of first of clause 7.2. DE fig 6 The examples contradict the design principles given before: e.g. i) is smaller and o) is larger in visual appearance than the other symbols Use better examples from the database JP Figure 6 JNC would like to submit alternative figure as shown for better understanding. UK e) Figure 6 Editorial The shading is not symmetrical. This makes the meaning less clear. Make the shading in Figure 6 symmetrical. UK-18 8 Whole clause The content of this clause should be harmonised with similar material in other standards dealing with the design of graphical symbols. This clause should give more emphasis to the need to check for existing symbols with the same meaning and for related symbols before any design work on a new symbol is undertake. It should also be re-written to harmonised with relevant clauses of: - ISO Graphical symbols - Creation and design of public information symbols - Requirements; - ISO Graphical symbols - Safety colours and safety signs -Part 3: Design principles for graphical symbols for use in safety signs - ISO/IEC Guide 74 Graphical symbols: guidelines for the consideration of consumers needs

12 12 UK-19 8 Whole clause /Editorial) The revised clause should appear earlier in the document and not be included as an after thought. Move to clause 5 and re-numbered existing clauses accordingly. UK-20 9 Whole clause Part 3 of deals with the adaptation of registered symbols for application purposes and it is confusing for material on the application of symbols to be included in this Part. Delete whole clause. DE-8 A.1 There is no need that the title is a noun phrase. change shall into should DE-9 A2 To identify..., to indicate... are no noun phrases to our understanding. Delete requirement that description be a noun phrase. Give more and better examples of preferred wording, e.g. : To identify the control or the indicator to... To indicate a reference to... Give guidance when to use which wording. UK-21 Annex A Whole Annex ISO/TC 145/SC 3C/WG 2 is currently reviewing the requirements for the titles, descriptions and notes that must accompany graphical symbols submitted to the committee for evaluation and registration in ISO It is likely that this will amplify some of the material in Annex A and provide examples of good practice in order to make sure that such information is adequate to allow both for proper evaluation of submitted symbols and all relevant information to be included in the joint database. It is therefore suggested that this Annex be re-considered when that work is completed. Re-consider in due course.

13 13 UK-22 Annex B Whole Annex /Editorial) The material in this Annex is about committee procedures and, although applicants should know about it, is more relevant to a separate document or for inclusion on the websites of ISO/TC 145/SC 3C and IEC/SC 3C, and in the introductory section of the joint ISO/IEC database. Delete Annex B and include this material in a separate guidance document and/or on committee websites and the joint database. UK-23 Bibliograph y Editorial Design requirements for public information symbols are given in ISO/DIS22727 and ISO/TR7239 is to be withdrawn. ISO gives design principles for graphical symbols for use in safety signs Delete ISO/TR7239. Add: ISO Graphical symbols- safety colours and safety signs- Part 3 Design principles for graphical symbols for use in safety signs. ISO Graphical symbols- Creation and design of public information symbols- Requirements UK-24 Bibliograp hy Editorial UK- above proposes adding reference to in clause 4. This should be reflected in the Bibliography. Add reference to FORM COMMENTS

ISO/TC145-IEC/SC3C JWG 11 N 141

ISO/TC145-IEC/SC3C JWG 11 N 141 ISO ORGANISATION INTERNATIONALE DE NORMALISATION INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATION FOR STANDARDIZATION IEC COMMISSION ÉLECTROTECHNIQUE INTERNATIONALE INTERNATIONAL ELECTROTECHNICAL